On to the next hand... I think this spot is really tricky, be interested to see what line people would take here.
Shortie shove gets in the way of 4bet spot
I guess we can just ignore the fishy short-stacks shove here and it's more of a question of whether we want to 4-bet the true villain, SB. I think we basically 4bet here every time but should I bet an amount that will let me get away from the hand if he shoves, or should I just go ahead and play for stacks here?
My preferred play is to raise to $110 total, meaning villain would have to call $86 into what will be a $262 pot. It'll leave us an effective $260 behind, should I be thinking about folding if he 5bet shoves? Or is there a better way to play this akward spot preflop?
Cheers dudes
Tuesday, 22 April 2008
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7 comments:
This is really dependent on the type of player SB is, and the table dynamics before the hand. However, I'm generally 4-betting this with the intention of stacking off in this situation. W/ a lot of players who 3-bet light I'm 4-betting w/ the intention of stacking off even w/ out the dead money in the pot from the shortstack donk.
me: and 4betting QQ is a mistake in this spot
well I guess its a 5bet
Barry: yea
me: but reopening QQ is the worst line here
Barry: damn, was sure that was the best play...
me: its call or fold and Id lean towards fold but not by much
Barry: i don't get how u can possibly fold there...
we're ahead of both ranges?
me: BB is pretty irrelevant
u open UTG and folds to a tight 19/15 guy who 3bets you from the SB
so its JJ+ AK
which makes 4/5 betting QQ here the worst line
he folds JJ and shoves everything else
so stove QQ+ and AK
Barry: hmmm, just didn't put SB on such a tight 3bet range
well when i thnk about it, even if u add TT or whatever in, probably won't make too much difference
i am utg, although we're 5 handed... and he's seemed pretty aggressive despite his vpip/pfr
definately a different way of thinking about it though that i didn't see
me: ya 19/15 probably knows you are opening the top of your range UTG and hes not getting trick from the SB bc of that and even if you do flat his 3bet he will be OOP postflop very deep
Barry: looking at what he'd do with each of the hands in his range
that's true
wasn't noticing we were 200 deep for some reason
As Dave points out above the SBs 3-betting range here is pretty important. I was giving him a pretty light range, however we're 200bb deep and he's 3betting my MP open from the SB, does a TAG really do that with 99 or AQ?
So I like the range of JJ+/AK for him, I might have put TT in too but it doesn't really make much difference... point is he's not 3betting me light here.
Folding QQ in this spot looked pretty ridiculous to me, as I thought we were way ahead of the villain ranges... however SBs range is actually pretty tight here. We're probably still going to have 40-50% equity against SBs range heads up. The problem is that when we 4-bet we fold out his hands that we beat and get it in against the part of his range that we're behind... and being 200BB deep that's pretty -EV.
100BB deep we'd never call as we're basically calling to hit a Q or to take the pot away from AK on a low flop. 200BB deep calling is much more of an option, it's pretty tight between calling or folding.
Pretty crazy, still trying to adjust my thinking to these deeper situations.
Well, so much for me posting when I'm half asleep. I have to knock that off. Thought you guys were playing 400nl, and this was Button vs. SB. GG reading skills, I've been saying that a lot lately. Since his 3-bet range is pretty tight in this scenario I think you can call for set value.
Yea, pretty strange... I more or less did the same thing as u, Vili. Despite looking at this hand a ton of times it appears I didn't consider my raise and villain's 3-bet positions. Fortunate Messiah pointed it out.
cheers for learning : ) let me know if you have any 2/4 or 3/6+ hands that are really tough after you bounce off people- I have been dominating regs there lately.
gl with finding a new coach and I would definitely check out deucescracked - if you need thoughts on a coach you can bounce names off me too
lolz...this is why i wish dave would keep coaching! i would probably have 4-bet/folded to a shove here. after reading through the analysis, i am more keen on calling.
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